Samah Sisay is a staff attorney at the Center for Constitutional Rights, where she focuses on challenging inhumane immigration and police practices. She's part of Mahmoud Khalil’s legal team, and she's been very gracious to be with us today, and speak to us about what's going on with the case and what the state of immigration law is right now.
The interview, which took place on March 17, has been edited for length and clarity.
HIRA AHMED
Right off the bat, can you explain to us what the legal basis for Mahmoud Khalil's detention is?
SAMAH SISAY
Mahmoud was detained on Saturday (March 8) in New York City, at his Columbia-owned apartment...What the government is claiming is making him deportable is a section of the Immigration and Nationality Act that is rarely ever used. And as an immigration attorney, I have never seen [it used] before.
It says that the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds to believe that his presence or activities in the United States have potentially adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States. It's a strange provision that makes someone deportable.
Mahmoud has a green card. He's a lawful permanent resident of the United States. He recently acquired that status in November of 2024, through his marriage to his U.S. citizen wife.
For all intents and purposes, there's no reason for ICE or for the federal government to be attacking him. I think truly, they're using him as a test case to see how far they can go in attacking political opinion and free speech activity that does not align with the administration's values.
HIRA AHMED
You mentioned that Mahmoud Khalil is a green card holder. Can you talk briefly about the distinction between undocumented folks, visa holders, green card holders, and how the narrative around the hierarchy of immigration status is working in this case?
SAMAH SISAY
There's multiple statuses that people can have in the U.S. Generally, when people talk about someone being undocumented, all it means [is] that at the moment they don't have paperwork or documentation that allows them to either work in the United States legally, or to access certain services in the United States… so they're here without any sort of status. Folks who are undocumented can include people who came here originally without any visa or any authorization to be here, but it can also be people who overstayed their visas.
Then there are visa holders, which, again, is a very broad category. It can include people who are here on work visas, business visas, school visas, travel visas, etc, and the only real distinction between a visa holder and a lawful permanent resident is that a visa holder has a very limited period of time [during which] they're allowed to be in the United States. They're supposed to leave or meet certain conditions in order to stay for a set period of time.
A lawful permanent resident is someone who has applied to the United States Government and tried to adjust their status. For Mahmoud's case, he entered the United States on an F-1 student visa, so he had a temporary visa as a student at Columbia University. When he got married, he adjusted his status to lawful permanent resident through his marriage to his wife. Through that process you're allowed to stay in the United States indefinitely. You are a permanent resident of the United States. There are certain conditions: you can't be out of the country for more than 6 months, or you lose your residency, but otherwise it's a pretty secure status.
And then, of course, the most secure status of all is citizenship, which people in the United States gain by either being born here or through naturalization. They have to go through rigorous screening and different criteria, and then they are able to take the oath and become a United States citizen.
HIRA AHMED
The First Amendment is obviously operating in this case; how does it apply to someone like Mahmoud Khalil who is a lawful permanent resident?
SAMAH SISAY
The First Amendment applies to anyone inside of the United States, regardless of their status. But specifically, I think, what's at play beyond the First Amendment for Mahmoud is due process. As a lawful permanent resident, he's been granted residency in the United States, and the Secretary of State or DHS or ICE cannot just take that away without providing him some type of fair hearing or evidence to show what they're claiming makes him a foreign policy threat, which they have not done. There's been no reason provided [for his detainment] beyond baseless speculations about connections to Hamas. It seems like they're focusing on his free speech activity of protesting or negotiating on behalf of students with Columbia University, etc.
HIRA AHMED
We learned that he was very promptly moved to a Louisiana detention facility. I’m wondering what the motive was behind that, and what the implications of that will be, for how you litigate this case.
SAMAH SISAY
Yes, so the federal government — after arresting and detaining Mahmoud on Saturday — moved him across multiple state lines and subsequently transferred him to a remote private prison. We call them detention centers, but they're [privately owned and operated] prisons in Louisiana. Hours after the filing of his original habeas petition (and as his attorneys, we believe this was an intentional and retaliatory act) this was an attempt to interfere with the jurisdiction of the New York court. So he was detained between 8 and 9 PM. On Saturday his attorney scrambled and was able to get a habeas petition filed in the Southern District of New York around 4 am on Saturday. ICE promptly began the process that morning of trying to move him to Louisiana. The impact this has on his case is obviously the habeas petition was filed in New York, and the government is arguing that because he was not in New York at the time of the filing, the court doesn't have jurisdiction over the case. That's what they're arguing. We're pushing back against that and saying that jurisdiction should stay in New York for the habeas petition.
But then, also, what it means is that because he's currently detained in Louisiana, his immigration case, if it does move forward, would be heard by an immigration judge in Louisiana, which is incredibly terrible and unjust [and] shows the intentional nature of what the government is trying to do. Because we're really aware that first of all, immigration detention in Louisiana is notorious for having some of the worst conditions that migrants face in the United States. And then immigration judges who are adjudicating these cases are usually not very friendly towards people trying to stop their deportation. So [jurisdiction] has a huge impact on the outcome of his immigration case.
And also if they were successful in moving his habeas to Louisiana, that would be in the 5th Circuit [Court of Appeals], which does not have great law on habeas.
Beyond the legal implications, though there are also personal implications to this move. His wife, Noor, is 8 months pregnant. They are expecting their child in a few weeks. He's a huge support system for her, he goes to all her doctor's appointments, makes her her meals. He’s a really attentive partner, and [Noor] not having that has really been really harmful to her. When we filed paperwork to the court, we were able to include declarations from her and letters from her doctor, really showing how the stress of [Mahmoud] being arrested and detained, and her witnessing this and fighting so hard for him is negatively impacting her pregnancy. Speaking to Mahmoud, all he worries about is Noor and the baby. And so the emotional toll of not being there for her is really incredibly harmful for him.
*As of Wednesday, March 19th, a U.S. district judge ruled that Mahmoud Khalil’s case will be tried in New Jersey. However, he remains in a detention facility in Louisiana.
HIRA AHMED
For those who might not know what a habeas petition is, can you describe it?
SAMAH SISAY
Yes, so a habeas petition is something you can file [with the court] when someone is in the custody of jail, or the federal government... saying this person should be free, and you provide reasons why they should be free.
HIRA AHMED
There are questions about whether or not Columbia cooperated with the federal government in pursuit of Mahmoud Khalil. How are educational institutions cooperating or not cooperating with the government at this moment? And what can they do to protect their students if they're so inclined?
SAMAH SISAY
For Mahmoud’s case, we don't have specific evidence that Columbia collaborated with DHS or ICE leading to his arrest, however, he was arrested in a Columbia-owned apartment, and he did not let [ICE] into the building. We've heard from other students on the Columbia campus that they've seen DHS or ICE officers, and that the doormen or security guards in these buildings are letting DHS and ICE agents into buildings to look for students, which is very, very concerning as a private university. Columbia has the ability to limit ICE and DHS access on their campus.
DHS and ICE are supposed to have administrative warrants that are signed by a judge in order to arrest anyone, and so the university could demand that these officers show these warrants before allowing them access to the building. They could have a policy that these federal agents are not allowed on their campus at all. But we're not seeing them doing that, which is very concerning. And then I think something else that shows the extent to which universities are not protecting their students is, the very day before he was arrested by DHS agents, Mahmoud had emailed Columbia leadership and detailed for them the level of harassment and doxing he was facing both online and from strangers, having had his information leaked online, having people call for his deportation. He was saying to [Columbia University], I'm worried about my safety. And can the university provide me any advice, legal help, anything? And it was pure silence [from Columbia]. And to this day [Columbia University] hasn't spoken about his case. They have not reached out to his wife or any of his family members. So, they may not be active in his arrest, but they're definitely complicit.
HIRA AHMED
Are there any misconceptions in the public narrative around Mahmoud Khalil's case that you would like to address or correct?
SAMAH SISAY
I think there's a narrative going around that he must have done something wrong, that there's no way that the federal government would go through all of this trouble of detaining and targeting the student just because he led the protest. And I would like to say, that's completely false.
It's not true that they have any sort of evidence linking him to any of the allegations. This is a case that is supposed to be creating fear for others. Because this is someone who has a green card, who is a lawful permanent resident. For many people, especially students, who are here on temporary visas such as student visas, their thought process is well, if Mahmoud can be targeted as someone who was admitted as a lawful permanent resident in the United States, what's to keep me safe? It's really chilling their speech and ensuring that they're not out on the streets, that they are not affiliated with any sort of activism in support of Palestine. That's not the type of space that we want to be in. We need to fight against that.
HIRA AHMED
Depending on how Mahmoud's case is decided, how do you expect things to move forward as far as civil liberties are concerned for both non-citizens and citizens?
SAMAH SISAY
You know people always say that Palestine is the canary in the coal mine. I think that's definitely true for Mahmoud at this moment. This case has the ability to set the precedent for what the executive branch can do moving forward in terms of targeting non-citizens for the free speech activity in the United States. Right now, it's Palestine. That is their focus. But who knows? Students who are engaged in environmental rights activism, people who are engaged in racial justice work, immigration work, etc, could all be targeted under this provision if it's allowed to stand.
HIRA AHMED
Obviously former presidents have made promises to close Guantanamo Bay. It is still open, and we're seeing how it's being sort of used to detain immigrants. How is Guantanamo or the threat of Guantanamo, operating in this case?
SAMAH SISAY
The Trump administration started about a month ago transferring immigrants, mainly Venezuelan nationals, to Guantanamo Bay as a point to create fear, to put pressure on foreign governments and to really galvanize their base.
It's really ridiculous that Guantanamo is being used in this way because it is a symbol of torture. It's a symbol of everything that's wrong with the United States, and should not be something that's used by the executive branch to show power. There's nothing powerful about stripping people of their rights and torturing them.
In Mahmoud's case there was a point when he was transferred to Louisiana, where we had a real fear that he could be sent to Guantanamo. If the federal government wanted to do that, at the time, there was no law that said that the United States could not detain migrants at Guantanamo Bay. And if he was detained at Guantanamo versus a rural prison in Louisiana, which is also very bad, it would have be even more difficult for us to have access to him, in terms of having phone calls to be able to work on his case. It would have been disastrous.
We did have a real fear that they would try to disappear him to Guantanamo. Thankfully that has not happened, and we've gotten assurances from the U.S. attorneys on this case that they don't plan to move him absent a court order for them to send him back to New York from Louisiana.
HIRA AHMED
Can you talk about how he recently invoked the Alien Enemies Act, and how that might be affecting the immigration landscape in the days to come?
SAMAH SISAY
The Trump administration has invoked the Alien Enemies Act which has not been invoked since World II, and was essentially what was used to detain Japanese nationals during World War II. It's essentially the executive branch deciding who is the enemy in the United States and justifying their behavior to deport, to detain, to arrest them, based on this very vague statute. So the administration invoked the Alien Enemies Act and promptly flew hundreds of Venezuelan nationals to El Salvador.
There was a court order telling them to turn the plane around. They defied that order, and the flight continued. The administration is now trying to change their tune and say they didn't actually defy a court order, because the plane was on international waters when the order came in. That it came too late and so it didn't apply.
But I think again, like I was saying before, what we're seeing here is peak fascism, peak authoritarianism. And there are various tools, unfortunately, in the United States that have always existed to allow this to happen, to expand the power of an executive to allow one person to have control over so much in our system. And that's what we're seeing with the Trump administration. They're essentially using things that have always existed in the United States to exclude people and to expand their [own] power.
HIRA AHMED
A common refrain during the Trump administration has been that the courts are all we have. I know that lawyers are working tirelessly to stop Trump by filing lawsuits, but what do you think ordinary people can do to support immigrants at this time?
SAMAH SISAY
I think lawyers are definitely a part of the strategy that is needed at this moment in order to block things in the courtroom, in order to show the executive branch, and specifically the Trump administration, that they don't have the power to do whatever they want. However, the law alone lawsuits alone will not save us. We really need people out on the streets. What was so powerful about the court conference that we had on Wednesday for Mahmoud's case was that we were not alone. The lawyers were in the courtroom, but the people were on the outside protesting and showing how upset they were at the government for attacking Mahmoud in this way, and saying, we won't allow this to go on. It's so important. We've seen it with other actions from the government, whether it was the Muslim ban or you know, trying to detain prominent activists such as Ravi Raghbir in New York, people coming together and really showing that as a community, they're against these policies, it's important.
I do think there's more that needs to be done beyond protesting. I think people will need to really stand up for their neighbors. What does it mean for you to ensure that people are safe when they're being targeted by the state right? Does that mean coming into formation, safety planning with your neighbors and thinking about how you all can be in community together to keep each other safe? I think all of these things matter, the protests, the legal strategy and the community building and community care.
HIRA AHMED
The midterms are going to be coming up and I'm wondering if there is any legislation that advocates hope to see passed that might be able to protect immigrants in this political climate?
SAMAH SISAY
Unfortunately, we've seen that Congress has not been able to stand up to the Trump administration in regards to immigration. In fact, one of the first actions that they took under the Trump administration was a bipartisan bill called the Laken Riley Act, that essentially further criminalized immigrants and made it easier for ICE and DHS to detain and deport them. So I think there is a lot of pressure that's needed at this moment to ensure that representatives and people in Congress are listening to their constituents, and are not afraid. A lot of them are worried about losing their seats, and so they are not being bold in their actions, and I think it's upon us to push them and remind them who they represent.
Right now, there are efforts in Congress to reduce the budget for DHS and ICE. The Trump administration has attempted to expand the DHS budget in order to engage in more immigration enforcement, more arrests, more deportations, etc, at the moment. They [currently] don't have the resources to do the type of deportation that they've promised. There are efforts to really push congressional members to ensure that that budget line is not increased, and that this agency is kept accountable to the people. There are also efforts being made to reduce immigration detention and end private prisons, etc. Those efforts have not gained steam. We find that incarceration oftentimes is a bipartisan effort where people are making money from private prisons, or are deeply steeped in the idea of criminalization, especially when it comes to non-citizens. So there's a lot of work to do in that space to ensure that the expansion of detention is not allowed. This is truly a moment where Congress could come together and push for the closing of Guantanamo Bay. To really say that this is a place that has been a stain on U.S. history that should not be allowed to be repurposed or used for anything else.
And then, I think, last, but not least, we've seen what's happening on university campuses, the slashing of DOE, these requirements that universities have to report students who are engaged in free speech activity that now is being labeled as anti-semitism. There is a lot that can be done at the political level to push back against the narrative that anything related to Palestine, or anything that is pushing for Palestinian human rights is anti-semitic.
HIRA AHMED
Thank you so much, Samah. Is there anything else you wanted to address that I didn't ask about?
SAMAH SISAY
No, I guess all I want to say is that Mahmoud is such a lovely human being. He is someone who is incredibly committed to his values, someone who cares deeply for his community, for his loved ones, for his wife, his child to be. We've been hearing so many terrible things about him online from people who've never met him before, who do not know his character, who do not know the person he is. And during Ramadan, when he's supposed to be with his loved ones, to really be reflecting in this moment and welcoming a new life, he's been snatched away, and the government has tried to disappear him. It's so moving to see people come together and not allow that to happen.
But as much attention as we're giving to Mahmoud, we must realize that so many other students are also being targeted. It's not about one person. How do we, as a movement, ensure that everyone, all non-citizens are protected from this administration's unlawful actions?
